tuftears: Thoughtful Lynx (Thoughtful)
[personal profile] tuftears
I've poked around at a variety of projects and one I would *like* to get back to, but is on the backburner because I just don't "get" it enough, has been the concept of superheroes in space. That is, not 'low Earth orbit' or 'villain has a secret base on the moon' or anything like that, but a story about superheroes out there in the galaxy, visiting different places.

But I really do enjoy superheroes as a literature.

So, a couple of things that need to go together:

One. Superheroes. I can come up with individual heroes, but I'm not sure I adequately understand how to fit them together, or make them work. What are your favorite heroes, what do you like most about them? What do you think your heroes would do, given access to a starship and a map to Local Space?

Two. Galactic science fiction. Once you have cheap and convenient space travel, you usually also have abundant power, resources, and space. The individual power level of your average police-person, soldier, or armed warship goes up correspondingly, to a point where some fellow running around in tights punching people out from the shadows might seem more like a dangerous vigilante than an actual hero.

It feels to me like superheroes and villains might turn into... celebrities, consultants, or maybe they might confine their superpowered deeds to the frontiers where the general power levels are a lot lower.

Is the solution here, make the superpowered people more powerful, lower the generally available 'power level', maybe by way of some kind of apocalypse that forces people to turn to superheroes for help, while supervillains try to provide order "their own way"? Or go with the idea of celebrities, people famous for their own sake, and having powers simply enrolls one into a system where the question is how they use that power? What would *you* want to see?

Distance is also an issue, but one that can be solved with discreet application of technology. Star systems are, relatively speaking, entire states, so one can travel between "cities" -- planets, space stations, asteroid mining bases, that sort of thing, relatively quickly -- but going between systems without a convenient hyperspace gateway in the middle is going to Take Time (tm), in which the hero won't be available to solve crime in their normal beat. Contrariwise, villains probably rely on that same factor to elude pursuit-- things getting too hot in one system? Time to take a long trip!

Three. Superhero stories. This is possibly the biggest stumbling block. I like *reading* them, but I'm way less confident about writing one, especially one that involves multiple superheroes in a given sector of space. Maybe tell me about some of your favorite superhero stories, or things you *do* want to see, and things you *don't* want to see.

The most obvious story is, of course, some grave threat to all existence within a sector, but that's way too heavy-handed to me. I want to write stories that explore life in a galaxy that has some finite number of superheroes and villains, so they need to interact with one another, and existence can't be on the line every time, that just gets old fast. Stopping crime is the next obvious thing, I guess, followed by assisting in the wake of natural disasters. But what else do superheroes get up to?

Anyway, this isn't for a NaNoWriMo *this* year, but it could be for something next year!

Date: 2022-11-06 04:08 am (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
I suppose my problem is ... what SORT of superheroes are we talking about? There are so many flavors to choose from. Are there particular "franchises" that strike you as ideal?

Also, the matter of being in space -- what specifically appeals to you about being in space? Do you want space-SHIPS ... or is it just the "other worlds" aspect you're keen on?

On the latter point: One thought that has occurred to me regarding the problems with space travel is, what if there were other dimensions along which one could travel? (I am trying to avoid saying "go to another dimension" as seems to get used in the comics world, as if a dimension were a finite place and not a ... uh ... DIMENSION. That is, dimension != universe; dimension != world.) So maybe the cool way to get around is "alt-world travel," and they might be sufficiently different from each other to be quite alien to a certain degree. And then the origin of "superheroes" could be from one -- or more, but not ALL -- of those connected alt-worlds.

Date: 2022-11-06 04:14 am (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
If you want to do a superheroes/sci-fi mash-up, I suppose there's always room for that old standby in "sci-fi" games when we want something that's effectively magic but somehow not: "psionics." Or "psychic" powers. I remember how in the old Wild Cards series, everything was basically boiled down to "telekinesis." Just for whatever reason, everyone's telekinetic powers (if they had any) manifested in a very specific way that had meaning relevant to one's personality, which kind of "explained" how often one's powers seemed to be directly relevant to one's line of work, or conveniently fitting a certain degree of wish-fulfillment -- at least if you were one of the "Aces."

Date: 2022-11-06 02:25 pm (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
I hear you there, re: mind powers.

On a semi-related note, I feel like many superpower "systems" have a kind of backwards approach to which powers are more ... powerful. I've had a rough time trying to figure out how to articulate my thoughts on this, so I apologize for getting rambly.

Basically, I envision that among powers that might have any sort of a quasi-science aspect to them, destruction is easy, whereas restoration and creation are hard. A scalpel, in the hands of a surgeon, could be used to help heal. In the hands of an idiot, it's perfectly fine for stabbing.

So many times, the guy who can make things go KABOOM is seen as the powerful one. And, on an emotional, threat-assessment level, I can understand why other people might see it that way. However, in terms of sheer complexity, the person who can heal people, or at the extreme, could actually conjure up objects out of her mind and somehow they actually work -- well, that's amazingly more complicated. If, mentally, it only consists of the superheroine putting her hands on someone and wishing them to be better and then -- presto -- they are, then for me that's unavoidably magic, in a classical sense: It requires a sophisticated, arguably intelligent agent to be able to translate your desire to "heal" into action. Repairing wounds and removing disease from the body involve very different processes, and for starters it would need to be able to tell those apart. And, if in this cosmology it really is down to the superheroine deliberately manipulating forces every step of the way, not only must she have the power to reach into someone's body and zot harmful bacteria and remove infected tissues, but she must have the power to see and track such things.

Basically, every fundamental ability you would need in order to heal could be used to harm as well, and in potentially very frightening ways -- far more so than, I think, some fellow who can shoot fireballs from his fists.

Ditto with mind-reading, I think. Unless the writer wishes to imply that everyone is wired with the basics for mental ability, it's kind of flabbergasting to imagine someone not only having trans-dimensional senses that can pick up the neural impulses going on in someone else's mind, but furthermore translate that in such a way that they can "hear" and make sense of them. I pity the person who could "listen" to my thoughts, because I think a great deal of it would come across as utter nonsense! There are mental associations within my head, things that "make sense" in my mind because of my own experience, that I would struggle and probably FAIL to articulate aloud. And any depiction of "seeing" into someone's mind that results in crystal-clear television-like imagery ... well, hey, maybe that's what it's like inside the writer's amazing head, but definitely not mine! There is no photographic/projector screen going on in my head. And then, we could even get down to petty basics such as ... how can we ever really know for sure that the blue you see is the same as the blue I see? ;) Or, in other words, there's probably no universal standard on just how those information packets are going to look within the mind. (For similar reasons, I find "universal translator" conveniences in stories understandable for story-telling, but fundamentally absurd if you pretend to have a "hard sci-fi" tale.)

Or, in other words, when a mentalist is introduced, and he can just so effortlessly see into others' minds, and puppeteer them, it strikes me as very cheap storytelling. At that point, I can't buy it as some sort of sci-fi: it's really MAGIC, requiring some sort of intermediary spirits to translate.

Date: 2022-11-06 05:56 pm (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
Re: Psionics: I totally hear you regarding the need for limitations. "Magic" is not a viable superpower, for instance. I am not a fan of superhero sets where one member of the team is "the wizard" or "the witch" and what exactly can be done with this power seems to be in the realm of, "Well, the writer has no idea how to get from A to B so ... MAGIC TIME!" -- while the rest of the time the wizard just sits in the background and goes "pew pew!" with "magic bolts" the enemy without even really trying. (This is one reason I had really conflicting feelings watching "Dr. Strange: Multiverse of Madness." On the one hand, there was some cool stuff. On the other, I have absolutely no reasonable expectations as to the ability or limitations of either the protagonist or the antagonist, so the only acceptable mode of watching seems to be to kick back, try hard to turn off my brain, and just enjoy the special effects. Ultimately, I think the movie felt like a mess.)

I had a similar problem in RPGs when I was playtesting a certain cyberpunk setting using Savage Worlds rules, and there was a skill for "Hacking," and in essence EVERYTHING (and EVERYONE) was "hackable," since this was a sort of hyper-cyber setting where everyone has chips in their heads, and every security robot and door and all that, so in practice all you need is a hacker to point at just about anything and reasonably have a near-50% chance or possibly even better to "hack" it in a single round. In practice, the gameplay was absolutely broken. Everyone in the party was opting to either switch off their head-link-ups or do without them entirely, because otherwise they were at theoretical constant threat that if they ran afoul of a HACKER, the guy could bypass all their skills and defenses and just go for their heads (and the only way to effectively DEFEND against a Hacker in that setting was to ... be a Hacker yourself). And whatever the problem was, the shooty guy can only so often say, "I shoot it" and expect to help, but odds were, the hacker could ALWAYS offer, "I hack it" with a reasonable chance of improving the situation.

"Magic" as a power is a bad idea. It's like having "power" as a power. Or, say, having a bunch of magic schools, and then calling one of the schools "Chaos," and having it essentially be, "Whatever cool stuff I want to be able to do at any given moment."

Re: Principled villains -- I feel like if you go that route, it has got to be more than just a Venture Brothers style Guild of Calamitous Intent. "We do bad things ... but with RULES!" Because then you have to wonder how and why they came about, how in the world it holds together, etc. More, it would need to be a competing cause. The Lawful League of Order and Universal Betterment (we work WITH the governments of these worlds), vs. the Vigilante Society of We Are Awesomer Than Everyone Else (we have superpowers, we're meant to use them, and the normies are behind the curve in evolution anyway, so we'll make a better world for tomorrow and everyone's going to like it ... OR ELSE). Effectively, the second society might well be a bunch of nasties, but at least their leadership makes a show of being for a "good cause." Even if your organization is riddled with hypocrites, you at least need a unifying (nominal) cause, or else it's just going to be anarchy, occasionally tempered by a strongman and his little fiefdom. (E.g., the best you'll get is something like mafia or yakuza, who will at least make NOISE about holding to standards, but will regularly violate them when it's convenient to do so and there are no witnesses.)

Or, hey, maybe "superpowered space yakuza" is good enough for the scope of a particular story. "Okay, so maybe those superpowered brats who feel entitled to vaporize anyone who disses them can run rampant on other worlds, but on THIS one, we've got a SYSTEM. Go home, hero. We don't need you here."

Date: 2022-11-06 06:11 pm (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
Also, "power absorption" is a real peeve of mine in certain superhero settings. It totally ruined the "Heroes" TV show for me, from the get-go, when the ultimate OP characters were the "steal others' powers" and "copy others' powers" characters (and of course the limitations on the latter eventually got hand-waved away so he could go super-duper). I feel as if one's ability as a superpowered hero shouldn't only be what power you get, but how well you can learn to control it, AND how wisely you can choose to use it. (Just because you have a hammer doesn't mean everything in the world is a nail.)

But having some guy who just instantly gains powers undermines that. Any character progression, training, development, etc., just goes out the window, because usually for dramatic purposes the Big Bad or the Chosen One has to IMMEDIATELY be able to use that power he just acquired, at full effectiveness.

The other thing is that it feels very video-gamey, and often works at odds with whatever explanation was given for getting the powers in the first place. Was it a genetic mutation that gives you a link to element X? Well, not a very SPECIAL link if Mr. Monkey-See-Monkey-Do over there can just stare at you and copy it, and now is suddenly your match.

I also find it kind of stupid if you have the occasional superhero whose "power" is really more a physical thing rather than an "energy power." E.g., Stronkman is STRONK, and bench-lifts buses every day, with enormous muscles vs. just having a "strength field" that boosts his strength, so it seems kind of cheap to me if "Ms. Copycat" just spends a few seconds glaring at him, and suddenly she's got giant muscles and can punch through walls now. Bonus negative points if he's The Bull, and as part of her power-stealing she's now got horns, too.

My acceptance is improved if:

a) The copycat isn't immediately proficient in the use of any power that requires the least bit of finesse, and it will take training/practice to reach the level of someone who has already been living with that power for a time.

b) There's a limitation on the power(s) to be copied. You can only have one at a time. Maybe it takes TIME to observe and copy, or at least to do it properly. Maybe the power can only be copied for a limited amount of time, and you can't just renew it indefinitely once you find the "best" power. Certain powers can't be copied. Copying FEATURES really shouldn't be a selective thing (either it happens all the time, or never -- it shouldn't just happen when some superhero's power is intrinsically tied to his green skin or claws that pop out his hands or whatever). Copying gizmos is right out.

c) The powers themselves are presented in a way that makes them feel more "copyable." That is, if all superpowers are "pick an element and you can control it," I can sort of buy a universe in which someone could swap that out. If, however, Mr. Copycat copies ... I dunno ... BATMAN? Batarangs and ace detective skills and martial arts and all? That's another level of outright magic.

Date: 2022-11-07 01:41 am (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
I'm totally with you there! The very nature of it seems to be, the villain who was supposed to be a challenge to you -- well, now you are that powerful AND what you had before. That leads to some pretty crazy escalation. It also depends upon the universe spoon-feeding Our Hero just the right level of adversary to progress, like there's some GM carefully measuring the Challenge Rating of each encounter in a D&D-style level-based game. (Some "amazing coincidence" can be forgiven because, hey, maybe there are several heroes having a rougher time of it, but we're following the story of that one lucky case. But the universe probably can't handle too many people with "absorption" power level without them dominating the scene entirely in short order.)

Date: 2022-11-06 04:27 am (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
Another brainstorm thought on the alt-universe approach -- it would provide an excuse for very different power levels. What if superpowers were tied to the ability to traverse alternate realities? One's connection to alternate realities is in some way connected to one's ability to defy the normal order of things. (Exactly how might depend upon what sorts of powers you have in mind to be part of this definition of "superpowers.")

And as such, there could be worlds that are quite unaware of any multiverse out there, and potentially "ripe for the picking" for some unscrupulous supervillain. Maybe they've got high tech and heavy hitters and all that, but a certain advantage goes to the guy who operates by a different rule-set than anything anyone around here has seen before.

If nothing else, simply having the ability to hop between different realities could be its own very significant base superpower, and its application could be the basis for different "power sets." Perhaps this one fellow has adapted a certain gift for "flow-hopping" across different worlds as a means of teleportation. That is, he has an instinct for establishing a link to some other universe that happens to be "traveling" relative to this one in a desired direction (insofar as such things might make any sense). Want to teleport from point A to point B? Find a parallel universe that is sliding in the direction you want (relative to this one), pop over to it, wait X seconds, then pop back. This power might not be entirely without risk, since it could be very easy to misjudge the exact timing or relative velocities, etc. Or, you know, maybe you can't get BACK.

Some other world hopper has established a "bond" to a specific world/reality/space. He can basically open a portal to ... a vast expanse of magma? The void of space? The bottom of the ocean? A frozen world? Align that portal, open and close it, and you could effectively have the power to shoot fire blasts or ice blasts, or intensely-focused high-pressure water cannons, or act like a giant vacuum cleaner by sending things to the void. Or, good grief, point that water blast in the right direction and you might be able to propel yourself (equal and opposite reaction...) ... but the landing might be a bit rough.

In theory, you've got a finite amount of high-pressure water, molten magma, frigid air, etc., that you could conjure in this way, but it should be enough to last a mortal lifetime.

Anyway, it's all pseudo-science, but by having the powers be based on something, it might help to set some bounds on what might be possible within the setting, so it's not quite the whole smorgasbord of possibilities (including all flavors of magic, supernatural powers, patronage by deities whose religions presumably deny each others' existence, etc.) that one might expect from any given comic book company universe (where they simply can't resist the allure of crossovers, so all their creations have to be in the "same universe").
Edited Date: 2022-11-06 04:29 am (UTC)

Date: 2022-11-06 02:04 pm (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
What sort of powers do you have in mind? Are there any that particularly appeal to you story-wise?

Date: 2022-11-06 02:38 pm (UTC)
jordangreywolf: Greywolf Gear (Default)
From: [personal profile] jordangreywolf
From your list of sample superheroes, I think all of those would be fine story-wise, except Superman (unless you mean the early, original, classic Superman who could "leap over tall buildings in a single bound" rather than just flying over them). I know Superman's the classic, but I find it hard to get involved in any story that has a protagonist with that power level. (Now, a story with an antagonist at that power level can be intriguing, but it dominates the story.)

I should also note that Batman and Iron Man are purely "skilled normals with gadgets." Okay, maybe ridiculously skilled, but that sort of affliction is common even among "hard sci-fi" protagonists.

Fantastic Four is a lot closer to the "raw elemental force" mode of superpowers that I think is probably a lot more manageable story-wise. I mean, they all have very handy powers that can be used in a number of ways and definitely give them an edge, but it doesn't make them demigods who have to face other demigods (or wizards) in order to have anything resembling a challenge.

Ditto for Spiderman, I suppose, though it really depends on which version of Spiderman we're talking about (i.e., not "Cosmic Spiderman"), and his power set at times seems a little more "grab-bag" than Fantastic Four. ("Spidey sense" seems particularly paranormal/psychic.) But despite that, Spiderman is probably also around the power level that I think still makes for flexible storytelling -- personally impressive, can do far more than a mere mortal could, but is still going to have to work a bit to change the world, vs. Superman single-handedly solving the Cold War by zipping around the Earth, grabbing all the nukes, and tossing them into the sun.

Date: 2023-01-02 02:13 am (UTC)
rowyn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rowyn

I feel like the big question is "what are the things that you like about superheroes?"

One of my favorite things about superhero stories is the shared-world element. Standalone superheroes can be fun (I actually liked the film Hancock, for example). But I think it's the sense of continuity and overlapping stories that has always fascinated me most about superheroes. The way characters change and grow, gaining and losing powers, interacting with characters from other parts of the setting -- sometimes ones who are completely different in tone and power level.

Superhero stories are always a lot more about the character than the plot, for me. There's an authorized DC Comics Webtoon about Batman & co that's 90% superheroes interacting with each other in ordinary ways and it's perfect: https://www.webtoons.com/en/slice-of-life/batman-wayne-family-adventures/list?title_no=3180

Like it helps a lot that I'm familiar with the backstories of all of these characters, because it's an important backdrop. But the emotional beats and interactions are what fascinates me.

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tuftears: Lynx Wynx (Default)
Conrad "Lynx" Wong

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