Do I really want to remodel my house?

[tuftears]

All right, I've mentioned this from time to time in my comments, but basically when I let my parents stay at my house, ostensibly to keep an eye on me, they wound up cluttering the place. There are a bunch of repairs that need to be done on it, and the wiring is just old and not intended for modern standards - the kitchen breaker goes out if someone runs a TV in the dining room at the same time as the dishwasher, for instance.

So my initial plan was to refurbish the place. Repaint the walls, rebuild the kitchen, it should be like a couple months, right?

Well, had a contractor in today to talk about it... After I explained what I was thinking of doing - stuff like this SketchUp model - he said that it would be feasible to, as I wanted, remove the fireplaces and the kitchen side wall, but with all the demolishing needed and rebuilding - basic things like the wiring and plumbing - it would probably take some six months or so.

He recommended that I think about demolishing the entire house and rebuilding from the start, and having struggled with the floor plan as I try to figure out where I can put everything, I can see his point. The current floor plan is just tight and cramped. But that gets pricey!

Then we went down to look at the house that he was building for a client - not mock-Tuscan as I was trying, and failing, to emulate, but the real thing. It was gorgeous.

It was also intimidating as heck. This wasn't an ordinary house, this was a mansion. $2 million for the house alone on a property worth $5 mil. Dang!

But it was gorgeous, I'll give it that! Here are a few pictures.

The office:


The kitchen:


The kitchen sink:


One of the bathrooms, a small one:


The other bathroom, unfortunately blurry:


So what I'm currently faced with is a choice between these alternatives:

1. Scale back my plans drastically but go ahead with the remodeling. Stuff like faux marble walls or Venetian plaster go out the window. Fresh coat of paint, do what's needed but no more. I'll still be dealing with a wretched floor plan. Probably take 4-6 months to finish.

2. Demolish the house, build a new one with a more awesome floor plan. It will probably look a lot nicer. We could be looking at a year to be done.

3. Buy a new house, sell this one. Property taxes go up about 25% plus I go through the hassle of refinancing, but I don't have to do any remodeling, just furnish the new house, and I can move in nearly immediately.

I'm going to evaluate my options over the coming weeks. As some of you know, I am a misercat so I hate spending money... But my current house is falling apart visibly. And if I'm going to get significant repairs, why not go a little farther and make it look nice?

Oy! Decisions, decisions.

Comments

[merrycalliope.livejournal.com]

The problem with selling is that you'll end up having to do some reno anyway just to get buyers...or take a huge hit. I'd almost lean toward demo, or a major reno, on the old place. There are probably people that can give much more sound advice based on the local market though!

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Well, for my brother, the question comes in, resale value versus amount of work being spent. I looked up some sites with opinions on the matter, and interestingly, siding work, front door, and minor kitchen and bathroom remodeling all show up as cost-effective. But if I spend a bunch on tearing down walls, repainting things faux marble or whatnot, and other 'personal' touches, those won't repay anything toward the resale value.

Tearing down the house and building a new one is a major does-not-repay-investment. -_-

[okojosan.livejournal.com]

Personally I would immediately knock out #2 (unless it's really cheap to do so, factoring in the money that you will spend having to live in an apartment while the work is done.) Only a year? I don't know about that. :(

Selling the house might be very hard in this economy (I don't know how San Jose is doing right now, though.) And the buyers might demand repairs to be made before they commit.

My thought is to do #1 and reevaluate in another year or two and see where the economy is. You'll have done a good amount of work on the house so it will be fixed up to sell in case you decide to do #3. If you really want to demolish a house, buy a crappy one (crappier than yours!) and demolish it and build anew.

I dunno. I wish I were a homeowner but it must be stressful these days.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Well, I refinanced last year, 15 year fixed rate at 3.125% - monthlies go up a bit but I pay a lot less interest overall! There is some benefit in taxes from being a homeowner.

The downside of course is that I'm responsible for repairs and such, and this place definitely needs 'em. Unfortunately I'm not much of a handylynx!

Some remodeling might definitely help sell the place! Apparently new siding, a new front door, and a kitchen and bathroom remodels can all recover their cost.

[abirritate.livejournal.com]

If you can afford to demo, I'd do that. Having a house that you love with a great floor plan would be phenomenal.
Of course, I live in a 3 room apartment in Minnesota, so maybe I'm just living vicariously through you. :)

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

It is tempting! I think it would be kind of awesome to redo the floor plan to have, like, a big indoor courtyard/living room with all the bedrooms hanging off of it, Italian villa style.

[equusmaximus.livejournal.com]

Trixstir and I have been having similar thoughts with the house out on the farm. It's a huge house, but the floorplan has a few quirks, and there were so many corners cut during the building that it needs a lot of upgrades and other work. We've been doing some of the work ourselves, like fixing some of the plumbing issues, and laying down engineered-hardwood floors. (NEVER AGAIN!!! In the future I will either hire a pro, or just have carpeting put in! I love the floors, but Lordy what a process!)

If we had the $$$, I'd have the whole thing demolished and rebuilt properly - Use a slightly more sane floor-plan, no cutting corners, and while we're at it, let's make the whole thing as energy-efficient as possible. Ideally, I'd like it to be capable of being off-grid if we so chose. Ah, the things of day-dreams! :)

Whatever option you go with, please keep us updated as to what's happening. :)

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

You might find Earthships (http://www.earthship.org/) interesting!

[amarafox.livejournal.com]

I totally want to build an earthship sometime.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it would make a great place to retire, IMO! ^_^ Get out of the rat race, reduce your living expenses to just food and water, instead of having to pay a bundle for electricity. And of course, you could design the house to be exactly the way you want it, fitting like a glove.

[archangelbeth]

I'd add a second opinion here -- your contractor may be just a pricy one.

I'd also cross 3 off unless you get a stroke of luck, because most of the repairs will probably legally have to be made before you can sell it. I don't know what the law says about selling a house "as-is," even if you disclose all the fixer-upper requirements. Also, unless you are in a very good area, the housing market is Very Sucky Still -- in no small part because the banks are being very tight-fisted about making loans, according to my realtor mom. You might have a hard time getting a house you like. (If you find one that's perfect, though, maybe you can sell the old one to some Refurbishing An Old House tv show? O:/ )

Factor in the cost of being in an apartment if you knock the whole house down, of course. Factor in general hassles of making sure that they do good work, to code. (Read back a ways in my journal about when we got our sliding glass door replaced, and how the old one was held in by tape... And that was a Built New, yup!)

Factor in if you can afford stuff, and if so, will Money Buy Happiness with a whole new rebuilt house?

So, well, there are some things to consider. Which you were already considering. >_>

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

This contractor does seem a bit pricey.

Apartment isn't so much a concern, I can stay in the small house that my bro built for my mom before we ascertained that she just wasn't physically capable of handling herself in a house by herself anymore and moved her to a senior care home.

But yes... Lots of things to consider. I'm especially worried about affordability. If I buy a new house before I sell the old one, that's a time period where I'm carrying two mortgages! Ew. Especially if I use the money I was planning to use to remodel as a down payment on the mortgage.

[archangelbeth]

I'd shop around for various contractors (but avoid the rock-bottom price ones, because they're probably cutting corners) -- get references from prior customers, if you can! Carrying two mortgages is sucky.

If the apartment cost isn't an issue, then Selective Gutting or Full Gutting begins to look more interesting. (Hmmm. Turn the front entry into a garage, put the front door at the top of the porch, turn the wall between middle half-bedroom into a great big load-bearing archway looking into the kitchen, take out the door into half-bedroom (now it's an entry hall/sitting room!), put in the archway in the kitchen that your sketchthing has, turn the garage into a bedroom, turn the prior master bedroom into an exercise room/library with archway instead of the Door Orgy...

If that current master bedroom has a great big sliding glass door or big window, consider making it a "bump out" window (or door? hmmm) -- it is amazing how much more spacious it can make a room to add another 4-12 inches of perceived space!)

...can you tell I loved designing houses for the Sims way too much? >_>

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

My bro's concern is that all these are basically 'overbuilt' for the area, which is principally what he calls "second home" territory-- for people who have gotten a few kids and are finding their apartments/first homes too small. So, there's little chance of getting back much of the money that'd be spent in the gutting/rebuild.

Of course it'd look awesome, but right now my plan is to see what's already been done out there. If I can find a house that's about the price of what I would have paid in remodeling costs, and has most of what I want done already done, then it makes a lot of sense to buy it and sell the old house instead.

[archangelbeth]

That's true! And without the muss and fuss of moving out for the gutting, and moving back in after...

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Yep! But it comes down to, basically, finding someone who has a nice home like that and wants to sell it for not so much money. For instance, my brother suggests, there are people who buy 'fixer-uppers', fix them up, then try to sell them and find the housing market is not so good, so they start cutting their prices.

It's kind of like fishing, I guess, one must have patience!

[archangelbeth]

And what do you use for bait? O:D (Hopefully not the Miles Vorkosigan slightly-drunk tactic of using hand grenades for "bait"...)

[dracosphynx.livejournal.com]

Also, BTW, having a home build from start to livable in a year might be a bit optimistic. You have to factor in weather, materials, etc. Also, if you redo the foundation, I believe a *proper* foundation can require a certain amount of time to set properly if you expect it to last, etc.

If you go with something that is using pre-fab units, that could go faster, of course.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

That's true, regards time frame!

[kfops.livejournal.com]

If the "bones" of your house are solid it may be worth considering a gutting it and starting from there. You will have to consider things like the shape of the roof... if it is not good there is no sense working on the stuff below it until it is fixed or the weather could ruin any new build that you do.

You'd probably also want to bring in a structural engineer to make certain that you don't lose and load-bearing walls, or at least if you are taking them out you'll be making provisions for creating new structure to take the weight.

Our house was built in 1937 with a basement added sometime in the 80's (I've owned the property for about 13 years). The previous owner decided to remove a telepost and put a beam across the basement to supper the load with the basement walls. Needless to say the structure wasn't there, destroyed part of the front of the basement and helped the front of house sink 6 inches into the ground by the time I got to fixing it. It's surprising what you you get used to.

To fix the problem we had to completely gut the basement right back to the concrete walls, and the foundation guys took out the whole cement floor and did the work.

Long story short, with me doing most of the work (my Dad and uncle helped do the framing), we're about 3 years in and we've only just completed a laundry room and office downstairs. We still have a library, media room, and 2nd bathroom to finish. I've probably saved a fortune doing the work myself but at the same time you have to be prepared for the huge investment of time.

My lucky stroke was that I worked as an electrician's helper under my dad for 6 summers, so I'm not afraid of wiring... but it's incredibly important to be up on code in your area and make certain you've got the proper permits.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Oh lord. -_- That sounds like a real mess! No basement here, the whole thing is on one floor, but yes, not having wiring or construction experience, I'm not going to be saving a fortune doing my own work.

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

Unless you're so well off that you can actually afford a $2 million house, I'm a bit wary of the idea that you were shown such a house as an example of "what can be done." Sure, a lot can be done if cost is no object.

When you say your current house is falling apart, is it REALLY? I mean, structurally? Or is it just looking run-down? I wish I could take a look at the floor plan, and compare to some of your wishes regards a new one. That might help me get a bit more context.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Well, I've mentioned the kitchen wiring, but also one of the doors fell off the kitchen, and generally it's pretty rundown.

Here's the rough plan: http://lynx.purrsia.com/~lynx/house.gif

It's actually somewhat off, but starting from the bottom left and going clockwise: garage, connects to the master bedroom (left) through the master bathroom, then the second bedroom (top left), third bedroom (top middle), with closets/air conditioner/bathroom in the middle, the half-bedroom is beneath the third bedroom. To the right of that is the family room, with kitchen nook in the spot with 3 walls on the right. (that's the area depicted in the Sketchup models, as I'd want it to be) And below that, bottom right, is the living room/entryway.

Sounds like you'd be a vote for option 1. };)

[archangelbeth]

...what is a half-bedroom? O_O (Like, ultra-teeny, with a... closet?) And what's that... U-shape in the middle? Porch?


*beth eyes the bottleneck of doors*

If you do only partly renovate, you might want to take out the hall closet above the master bedroom there (if that's not a water-heater/AC closet, that is, as those are harder to move), and put the door into the master bedroom there, so it goes down. Then turn the door into a wall, and you've got hallways instead of door-orgies, at the cost of a closet. (Of course, I'm working from a floorplan.)

I do not think the designer of that house was very sensible -- the kitchen is too far away from the garage! You have to carry groceries all the way through the house! (Therefore, turn that middle half-bedroom's right wall into some kind of load-bearing archway, extend the house down 4-5 graph-squares into the porch, and move that side's garage door so you can at least go from the garage to the kitchen without going outside or through the bedroom. Though that does lose some porch, so it really depends a lot on how much "porch" matters to you.)

...I begin to see the appeal of "tear it down and put in something that makes sense." (Though on the other hand, a quirky floorplan is kind of amusing, too. If it's not unpleasantly quirky.)

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

You are one of those people who uses their garage for their car! Weird! My garage is full of more useless junk. -_-

The hall closet is indeed an AC closet!

There is a door in the side of the garage so if you had to do something crazy like parking in the garage, you could open that and go through it to get to the main entrance.

I'm not attached to the porch area, if it weren't for me wanting a lot of space for my library and for exercise equipment I plan to install, I could be happy in a 1-bedroom apartment. The contractor actually did suggest that the porch area could be turned into More House.

[archangelbeth]

Garage is where car lives! Spent 10 years in a condo with no garage at all, brushing snow off the thing, and ugh. Garage. With auto garage door opener. Is necessary. >_> Now, the sides of the garage are full of shelves and whatnot, and any part that isn't necessary for maneuvering around the car...

The Basement is where More Useless Junk lives!

And the designer of that floorplan is a fruitcake for making someone have to carry groceries around through so much house, going outside as the "fastest" way to the kitchen. No wonder there's no point to putting your car in there. It's useless!

I would totally turn the porch into More House. I would, personally and as someone who is terribly iffy about this Outdoors thing, say that you should eat at least half the porch for More House, and a better route to the kitchen from the garage, put a half-wall up to finish the square of the house, put in big screenable windows, and have a semi-outdoor area that a couple chairs can go on -- but you can also close it off in storms or yuck and open the door to the heat/AC.

Alternatively, if the porch is big enough for a car, turn it into a carport or garage (the path through entry room to kitchen isn't too awful) and make your existing garage into a bedroom, with the old bedroom becoming a sitting room/exercise room/library. (Replace the door, adjoining the AC closet, with a glass sliding or folding door or even an archway, stick a door between the old bedroom and the garage, and decide if you want to keep the two doors into the bathroom or if you'd rather have one of those doors become a wall with storage-space shelves or a fancier shower or something.)

I think this means option 1.5, gutting judiciously, is where I'd be leaning.

(Note: cjthomas is quite correct -- only renovate areas that are actually a nuisance. But do consider whether something is a subliminal nuisance or if it would be something you'd be actively sad to lose as a house-quirk. Or if it's a load-bearing wall.)

...what is that little room with two doors in and out of it, beside the half-bedroom? O_o

[archangelbeth]

(Oh, if you carportize the porch, definitely put that archway into the kitchen, like you've got in your Sketchup design.)

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

It's a half-bathroom!

Turning porch into house is an expensive proposition and goes into the 'tear down and rebuild' option, really. };)

[archangelbeth]

Carportize? Or is it too small?

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

The porch area? Probably too small! It's an interesting thought otherwise.

[archangelbeth]

Drat -- and eating enough of the garage to make it a carport would get into Load Bearing Wall issues, and thus tear-down-and-rebuild.

[cjthomas.livejournal.com]

That is.. let's call it an "impressively organic" floorplan. Does the house show signs of having been built in several parts, or of new internal walls being added after the fact? As-is, it looks like it's intended to route traffic through rooms in very strange ways.

You can add me to the "option 1.5: gut some or all of it" category. Unless you regularly have a large number of people staying the night, the sanest option would probably be to renovate everything to the left of the family room (including the closet opposite the kitchen), repartitioning the space into something less awkward. You'd end up with one fewer rooms but traffic flow that doesn't require you to walk through as many tight spaces to get anywhere. You could optionally make the family room area larger by moving its leftmost wall left during this process, as well.

That said, a) I agree with the statements about making sure load-bearing walls stay in place, and b) only renovate if that area of the house is actually unpleasant for you. It's just what stood out to me on the floor plan =^.^=.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

The traffic flow seems straightforward? You go in through the entrance in the living room on the right, up through the kitchen, then left through the hall to the master bedroom or other bedrooms.

That's not a closet next to the kitchen, that's the half bathroom!

[cjthomas.livejournal.com]

Nobody's likely to get _lost_, but only on Mars should you have to walk through a bedroom and a bathroom to get to a garage.

Unless the scale is larger than I'd thought, it does look _cramped_. There are several places where closet doors would obstruct things if open, and I'd hate to have to try to move furniture or bulky objects into or out of the bedrooms.

And that's assuming the layout is one square = one foot. Given that that would give you a family room as wide as my entire house, I'm thinking scale is a bit funny in the drawing.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

It is indeed one square = one foot! The family room is about 16' by 17'.

There are some inaccuracies, some doors may not swing quite the way I indicated; for instance the closet doors opposite the master bedroom would swing to block the bathroom, not the main hall.

[cjthomas.livejournal.com]

My house is about 16'x30'. It would fit in your family room plus living room, with room to spare. Sympathy for floor plan awkwardness, I now lacks it };>. *attacks Lagkitten's tailtip*

[Granted, we're similar for square footage across all floors, but still. =^.^=]

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Oh Lordy, you live in a townhouse? D:

(Lagkitten batbatzaps!)

[cjthomas.livejournal.com]

No, an ordinary detached house in a city. Houses are usually about 16"x30" up here, on lots that are twice those dimensions (or for neighborhoods like this, maybe 1.5x as wide and 3x as long as the house itself).

Houses here are usually main floor/upper floor/basement, so it's double or triple the footprint's square footage, depending on whether you've furnished the basement or not. There's usually a crawl space above the upper floor, but it's very rare for that to be used for anything but storage (and even that isn't a given).

I'd never live in a townhouse (assuming that means the same thing down there as it does up here: the equivalent of several houses stuck side to side with firewalls separating them). All it would take would be a kitchen fire or cigarette fire in one unit to have every unit burning, firewalls or no firewalls (firewalls stop localized fires but don't save you if everything including the roof is ablaze). Fires like that hit the news every year or so. Risk-averse kitty is risk-averse =^.^=.

Semi-detached houses (sharing one wall) are a grey area for me, though I'd still strongly prefer detached (don't have to worry about waking anyone up if doing laundry at 3am, or about carpentry noise during the day, etc).

I take it you're in suburbs or elsewhere where land is cheaper?

[cjthomas.livejournal.com]

Err, 16' by 30'. 3 hours of sleep will result in typos like that, before you make wisecracks };>.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

No, it's a normal city, but out here houses tend to be one floor, no basement or second floor! Townhouses are side by side, but they're also multi-floor and narrow. You lose a lot of space in stairwells, which is why Disapproving Cat Disapproves.

My square footage is about 1479 or so.

[safti]

I would also almost want to look at gutting, but not demolishing. I don't know what kind of position you're in, though. And I agree regarding the economy, BUT, again, if you have money to spend, a reputable contractor to sign, and contingency plans if, for example, in eight months the materials they need to put the walls in are backordered for weeks, I think you should do it. If you're not planning to move cities, why not *make* the house you want?

And those photos are gorgeous. I gasped at the first bathroom. *sigh*

(I am also a person living in an apartment (2 bedrooms), so, disclaimer. ;) )

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

It is amazing! I didn't mention this above, but the kitchen? No visible dishwasher! The dishwashers are cleverly hidden behind cabinet doors that blend in with the rest, so everything looks oldstyle and you have to pull the door down to see it's actually a hidden dishwasher.

I r thrifteh lynxeh, so I have to think about money spent versus eventual resale price. This will require some math!

[rowyn]

I'd probably go with minor remodeling, if you can live with that, or buying a new house if you can't.

I am not aware of any story that involved serious remodeling or building and was HAPPY. Construction inevitably leads to time & cost overruns and misery. It is not worth years of your life being disrupted and difficult in order to have a nicer place to live, IMNSHO. And it will probably be years. These things never finish on time. v.v

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

I've been all right living in squalor (as my brother puts it) for years. x_x It just is annoying having been drooling over pictures of amazing looking houses and fantasizing how nice my house would be after a thorough remodeling.